| Interactional saadhana |
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| Thursday, 25 June 2009 22:04 | |||
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Transcript of Video-satsang: Sunday 8 March 2009. Topic: Interactional saadhana.
Jeyabalasingam: Pranaams Nutan Swamiji.
Nutan Swamiji: Aasirvad.
Jeyabalasingam: There are thirty of us gathered here today. Anjali will be putting forward the questions.
Anjali: The first question: What is meditational sadhana? Can the interaction of the devotee with the constant thoughts of Guru during interactional saadhana be considered as meditational sadhana?
Nutan Swamiji: No. You understand that it is not so. It cannot be because during interactional saadhana it cannot be called meditational saadhana. During meditation there is no interaction. So much so, in the ultimate peak of meditation, nothing is functioning. (Swamiji chants a Sanskrit verse) None of the sense organs, either the mind nor the buddhi functions. Everything stops in the culmination of meditational saadhana. So the answer to the first question is ‘no’. It can be interactional saadhana only; it cannot be called meditational saadhana. But thinking of the guru can be good interactional saadhana because suppose whenever we are working, if we always keep in mind my guru is watching, actually he is watching. Guru is within us and if we look within, there is our conscience, which is watching what we are doing, what we are thinking, what we are discussing. Everything is being watched by our own consciousness and there lies the guru. The guru is residing there. If we remember always that the guru is watching, whatever we do, then we will not do anything wrong because guru represents our ultimate attainment. Whatever we are aiming at, that is represented by the guru. So if we always can think ‘whatever we are doing, the guru is watching us’, this is a simple saadhana.
Saadhana is of two kinds. Saadhana means …… We are normally suffering from an ignorance of our own identity. That we are carrying a wrong identity about ourself; our real identity, our real self or soul as we say. Saadhana is that which takes us closer to that. It can be done through a meditational process where we know from the scripture or from the guru, we come to know about our real self and that is when we start contemplating on the self. That is, the mind will not think of anything other than the self. So in that case, you cannot think of anything other than the self. So that contemplation on the self is called meditational saadhana. That cannot take place if the mind is distracted. The mind has to be one-pointed, focused on the real idea, of the real concept of the self alone. Now that may not be possible for people who have been given to various activities of various kinds. The mind will not get focused on the self easily. So should we stop our saadhana then? No. We can still proceed to find out during the interaction, what is keeping us away from the self. And try to mend and find out the approach to that trouble. That means in interaction also we try to think and find out and locate what is keeping us away from our nature and try to come closer to the truth. So that is called interactional saadhana. When we are acting, we try to focus on our mind and our bhaava (mind-set) and try to find out where we are going away from the true identity and try to correct that at that point. So what we suggested is that interactional saadhana clears our mind of the distraction. So with interactional saadhana, when we sit for meditation, it helps meditational saadhana. The progress in interactional saadhana helps us progress in meditational saadhana also. And if we get the progress in meditational saadhana, getting touch of the self, then that helps us to progress in interactional saadhana also. So the two are interrelated.
So interactional saadhana helps meditational saadhana and meditational saadhana helps interactional saadhana. Only meditational saadhana is generally one hour, two hours or so. Whereas interactional saadhana takes the rest of the period. There are people for whom meditational saadhana takes away the whole day. They are completely given to meditational saadhana which is called ………. jnana nistha.
Whatever we are doing, if we think of the guru, we will not do anything wrong that is not approved by the guru. Whatever we are doing, we think that guru is watching us. Actually he is watching. In our personality, we have the consciousness core that is the guru; he is noting what we are doing. It is not that we do not know that we are doing something harmful, something very wrong. We do not know that we are doing wrong. Whenever we know that the guru is watching us in all our actions, that can correct all our interactions and make them conducive to our saadhana. Then we come closer to ourself.
Anjali: The second question: How to practice interactional sadhana within the family without being too personal and egoistic in making decisions?
Nutan Swamiji: Now here also I find there is a contradiction. Interactional saadhana will be helpful in not being selfish and not being personal. Interactional saadhana means we have to be impersonal in all our actions. So the question is again wrongly put, I would say. Actually interactional saadhana means we have to be impersonal. And we have to be non-egoistic in making decisions. Because suppose what happens generally, selfishness is the main obstacle in our saadhana because we have the wrong identity that we are small, that everybody is different from me and me and my and that is all that is keeping us away from saadhana. The interactional saadhana should always be first of all to watch where it (the thought) is coming.
Just for your convenience, I will describe how interactional saadhana works. It has got three phases. I have discussed about it earlier. In our article Vicharasetu we have Bhava suddhi article. Now that is exactly speaking what we do in interactional saadhana. Initially what we do, suppose we do something wrong, I have already become angry or spoken harshly to our fellow devotees or not done something well. We have been very interested. Now I have failed in my saadhana, I should not have behaved like that. So the first thing we note is that we have already done the wrong interaction. Carefully we are watchful that we have done something that goes against saadhana. Next time I will not do like this. Next time I will be humble. Next time I will be non-egoistic. Like that we love everything, speak well of others. But when the situation comes again, we fail. The same wrong will come again. It does not mean we will not do it again.
So interactional saadhana is to look into the cause of our interaction; watch the cause of our interaction. Why did I do that wrong behaviour? Why my behaviour went wrong while interacting? What is the cause of that? Where is the cause? The cause of all behaviour is within our mind. To look for the cause, we have to look into the mind. Observe the thoughts going on in your mind which is making us do something wrong in the interaction. So the focus goes from the external interaction into the interior part. The focus changes direction, the mind becomes focused within; the watchfulness is within now.
If we look within we will find that in our thoughts, we are always egoistic, always looking for personal position, personal appreciation, personal gain. All these things are occupying our mind. So if the thoughts are like that, how can we control the interaction? Interaction will be controlled by the thoughts. In all this interactional saadhana, our focus should be causal. What does causal mean? We have to watch our thoughts. Whenever the are harmful thoughts, egoistic thoughts are coming in, looking for personal position, personal wealth, personal gain, then only we will have to immediately correct the thoughts… “Ah! Again I am thinking like that!”. If I think like that, my interactional saadhana will definitely go wrong; I will not be able to correct myself in my interactions. So we try to correct our thoughts.
So you see how the whole saadhana changes. So first we don’t watch our interactions. We go fight with people and if we win in the fight we become very happy. If we lose the fight we will become subdued, all these things go on. We never look into the mind at all, our interactions at all. When we become watchful about our interactions first, we start discovering where the interactions are going wrong. Then we find that does not work; again and again we are doing the wrong interaction. So the watchfulness is shifted from the exterior action, external action to the thoughts yet rising in the mind. And we find that our mind is full of wrong thoughts.
So try to apply the correction right at the source formula, the causal mind of the thoughts, that the thoughts should be humble, the thoughts should be healthy. In the Santhi Mantra “Om Bhadram Karnebhih Srnuyama Deva:” Everything should be bhadram, auspicious. I have explained to you in one Upanishad, in Malaysia also. Everywhere the thought should be bhadram. It should be auspicious, thinking of others, thinking good, not selfishly. If you try to do that you will find again we are not able to control our thoughts.
Now we come to the third level. To correct the thoughts also we have to look at the causal level again. Here the thoughts are at the effect level. You have to go further to the causal level to correct the thoughts. Now what is the causal level? The causal level we call bhava or the mind-set. Suppose we have red light. From that only red radiation will come. If we have blue light, only blue radiations will come. If you have white light, only white radiations will come. It is the source of the light, the colour of that source which is giving rise to the different radiation. Like that what is colour of my mind? Try to find out mind-set, colour of the mind. If the mind-set is selfish, constricted, looking for selfishness, selfish gain, then all the radiations, radiations means radiations of the mind that are the thoughts; all the thoughts coming out from the mind, that mind-set will be of the same colour, will be selfish, will be looking for personal gain, always harmful to others, will be haughty, will be egoistic. If the mind-set is egoistic, all the radiations also will be egoistic. So we try to control the mind-set at the point. That is the absolute causal level from where the thoughts are appearing.
So let us have a very humble, loving mind-set. That is why in all the religions you will find that they always preach people to be loving to all. Not to discriminate, even loving to the criminals, loving to everybody. Why do they say? That is correcting the mind–set, inner source from where the thoughts are appearing. If that source we can make full of love, full of welfare of others, full of good thoughts, auspiciousness, automatically our thoughts will be good, radiating from there. And the thoughts will involve us in the actions, so the actions also will be auspicious, will be good. This is the basic theme of interactional saadhana.
So I just want to point out now there is no difference between interactional saadhana and meditative saadhana. Only functional difference. Here what we have done, to correct our interaction, where we are going wrong away from saadhana, we finally came down to our core level. And try to make the core benevolent, make the core loving, make the core expanding, infinite, sky-like, impersonal, the core bhava level. Now what we do in meditational saadhana is same. All these characteristics I illustrated just now are the characteristics of the soul. The soul is untouched by everything, the soul is infinite, the soul is undivided, it never gets tarnished by anything. Obviously we are contemplating about our own self. So is it not the same thing? In meditational saadhana through contemplation of the soul, we are interacting with the core centre of our personal being, of our personality. And through interactional saadhana also by going to the core level, more and more deeper level we are coming to the core finally. Do you get it? (Audience reply yes).
So a person will have upholded saadhana when he tries to interact with the core and change the colour of the core. Try to make it white, rather than multicoloured. By interacting with the concept of the soul, make it soul-like. So he comes closer and closer to his real self, to his soul. And while interacting, every time watch when the going away from the soul concept, where we are misbehaving. And the cause we trace to the thoughts. And trace the mind-set, there also you become soul. So through our all 24 hours, we are trying to come closer and closer to the soul. In other words, we are trying to become expanding, expanding like the universe, like the sky. So there will be a sky-like impersonality growing within us. So interactional saadhana also will make us sky-like, non-egoistic, impersonal. So where is the question of becoming egoistic and personal? It is not so. If we do the interaction properly, we have to become impersonal. If we are not becoming (impersonal), then we are doing asaadhana, or reverse of saadhana. That is the conclusion.
Anjali: The third question: A person meditates and successfully attains self absorption. In other words he experiences “the self”. Will not this experience enrich him sufficiently so that he does not have to practise interactional sadhana?
Nutan Swamiji: I have already replied it; that through meditation, contemplation, we are changing the causal level. So normally he should not need to practice interactional saadhana. But what happens is that he needs it. Because we find that in our interactional level, we are so much full of selfish elements, so much of constriction, that even when in our inner being we can realize the self and be the self, in interaction he behaves very mean. Sometimes constricted behaviour comes out of that person also. So the saadhana never ends. Even when a person realizes in meditation, for him also the behavioural saadhana will never end. There is no end to becoming expanding and sky-like.
Actually, there lies the joy of saadhana also. We always think that “when shall I become siddha?, Shall I attain the final goal?”. And we will become uninvolved. That is no joy there at all. The joy lies in expanding. The joy lies in saadhana. Every bit, every moment we do saadhana we expand. And the joy comes from expansion. If that is final, then there won’t be further expansion. There won’t be any joy. Actually expansion there is no limit; even for a knower there is no limit. In his behaviour, he will become infinite and more and more impersonal. He can cleanse all his self and there is no end to it. So interactional saadhana has to be practiced by a knower also, whenever he is in interaction. Is it clear?
Jeyabalasingam: Yes, Swamiji. The fourth question: What is the difference between japa and repeating the diksha mantra, Swamiji?
Nutan Swamiji: They are the same actually. There is no difference between japa and repeating the diksha mantra. But the second phrase is not correct. It is not repetition of the diksha mantra which is called japa. It is called japa in a very elementary primary level. Repeating the mantra only; it is not called japa. The real japa is when the process is suggested by the guru while repeating the mantra. First of all we must know the meaning of the mantra and the mind must get absorbed in the mantra, in the bhaava of the mantra, in the meaning of the mantra. And finally the mantra can become silent also. There won’t be the mantra, there will be the bhaava alone.
Actually the question is the difference is the repeating the mantra is not the correct way of expressing japa. Although we say japa means repeating, but really speaking, japa is much higher than that. It is remaining focused on the mantra in whatever way the guru has advised us to do. That saadhana will be different for different persons also. Normally it is not just repeating the mantra but knowing the meaning of the mantra, or the concept behind the mantra. Suppose we are chanting a brahma mantra something relating to the Brahman. Say the mahavakia Swamiji was chanting the other day: “Aham brahm asmi”. “I am the Brahman”. Now if you don’t know what Brahman is, what is the point of saying I am Brahman? To say I am Brahman, if you don’t know what is Brahman, then what is the point in saying “I am Brahman” ? If I am thinking of a dog and saying I am Brahman, I will become a dog. If I am thinking of rakshasha and saying “I am Brahman” and I think that rakshasha is Brahman, then I will become a rakshasha. So we have to know what is Brahman. Brahman is defined in the Upanishads. Brahman is a term that is defined only in the Upanishads not any other place.
So we have to know what Upanishads speak about Brahman. What is Brahman according to the Upanishads. So if a japa is becoming an enlightened japa, one has to know what one is doing, what one is repeating. So the Brahman I am repeating, I have to contact that Brahman. I must become clearer and clearer about the concept of Brahman. Are you able to understand this? Is it clear?
Jeyabalasingam: Yes, Swamiji. Swamiji, we are told to constantly repeat the diksha mantra all the time. If that is the case, if we are engaged in work, we are engaged in some activity, is it …? (Sentence was not completed).
Nutan Swamiji: Well that is fine, that is fine. Throughout the day mind should go on repeating. When you are meditating, doing japa means you are in meditational saadhana doing japa. At that time you have to do what I said just now. Throughout the day it goes on, with the breath it goes on. And later on we don’t have to artificially think of the process also.
See, when we are initiated with a mantra, generally in practice when the mantra goes on in our mind throughout the day, and even in sleep also it should go on. But that is one thing. But when we are sitting for meditative practice, the practice we call japa practice is doing the japa in the meditative posture. At that time you have to do it with full contemplation or full absorption. The other kind we can call just repeating. But I prefer not to call it repeating because as you are more and more conversant with it, the mantra goes on in your mind in your active period also. Actually the concept was already there, it was deeply in your brain, deeply in your mind. It is not just chanting the word as in repeat. If the answer works deeply in the brain, in the mind, the concept works. Then we sit in meditation and do the japa, then immediately your focus also becomes very deep.
Jeyabalasingam: Swamiji, sorry to ask you this question, can you one more time give us the meaning of japa?
Nutan Swamiji: For a person who has taken diksha, for him repeating the mantra is called japa. But japa can be done by people who are not initiated also. Suppose you find people here who have not been initiated by a guru, but they go on doing ‘Rama, Rama, Rama, Rama, Rama, Rama, Rama, Rama, Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Krishna’. That is also japa. So diksha mantra is only if you have taken the mantra from a guru. And the guru has given you a mantra according to your constitution. Mantra will not be same for everybody. The guru may give different mantra to different people also, depending on the constitution. Diksha mantra is only for the initiated.
Jeyabalasingam: Now that we have finished with the questions, will Swamiji like to say anything else to the group that is here?
Nutan Swamiji: Last time, coming from Jamshedpur and coming from Malaysia also, what we think is while we get a joy in group activity; that you should know very clearly. When we are working alone, we don’t get that joy when we work together or two or three people work together, you should get lot of joy. If you are not getting lot of joy, then the group is failing in its purpose. So the joy you get is the same joy of expansion that you get by interactional saadhana. By our birth we get constricted. And the real nature of our being is we are infinite, we are sky-like.
So whatever gives us expansion is saadhana. Teamwork actually should give us expansion. It should not enhance our ego or our personal preferences or prejudices. It should always lead us to more and more of impersonality and expansion; and that gives us the joy. The moment we work together, we spread into other people with whom we are working and that is an expansion. We accommodate others, we accept others, we love others. We get the joy. The purpose of all other institutions like SIRD or Brahmavidya centre or anything is to give us the same joy through another kind of interaction.
So far we have discussed only meditational saadhana and interactional saadhana. Here the interactional saadhana is a specific kind where we have group activity. That also should take us closer to the soul. So whenever we are feeling we are not getting the joy, we are only working at cross-purposes. We should always remember that and always have a lot of joy in having group activities. I think Ma has something to say about it.
Jeyabalasingam: Pranaams Ma.
Maa Gurupriya: Yes. I am very happy to see you, as if sitting face to face. I was listening to all that Nutan Swamiji was telling you. See I just have to tell an incident that happened today. Swamiji is not in the ashram. Yesterday night he went to Vyasa Tapovanam after his purvasrama sister passed away. So this morning I was waiting for the puspa samarpanam bell to ring. The bell was not rung. So I was thinking what has happened. And when I came out Rima told me there is a confusion. Should we have puspa samarpanam because Swamiji is in the town itself? It was not Rima’s question; it was Binita’s question and Rima was speaking it out with me: ‘Should we have puspa samarpanam because Swamiji is in the town? So there is a confusion; if Swamiji is in the town, puspa samarpanam should be held at the chair. So we have puspa samarpanam as we do when all of us are out of the ashram, Swamiji and both of us. As all of you do in the centre. Why today this confusion took place I was wondering.
So in this talk I was trying to tell what is the necessity of all this ceremonies that we have. It is only for our growth. It is only for us to have the presence of the guru always with us. Like say even in the ashram, some people will be directly interacting with Swamiji, helping him with his work, may be giving him food, may be travelling with him. But what about others who are in the ashram but doing task where he is not under the guidance of the guru? So whoever is there, the fact they are working physically with Swamiji, or at near distance or far distance; for the devotee or disciples, one saadhana is to always keep the guru in the mind. At least always feel his presence. I was surprised that Nutan Swamiji said the same thing that you must feel that you are being watched by the guru always whatever work we are doing.
So these ceremonies that we do, it does not matter whether Swamiji is here, there or there, because he is always with us. Whenever he is not there physically, we are feeling that he is still in the ashram. See, we offering flowers at his feet, even though it is near his chair. So the saadhana we have to do always is to feel his presence, to feel that we are being watched and that amounts to a repetition that whoever has a diksha mantra, repetition of the diksha mantra or repetition of the thought that the guru is with us; this helps in making the mind meditative. And that helps in meditation. And that will help in the interaction. Am I clear?
Jeyabalasingam: Yes Ma, it is very clear.
Maa Gurupriya: So all that you do in the centre, I remember very much when Swamiji left the centre, he was ill in 2005. He told all of you that ’Consider this centre as my body’. So I think that is the attitude that one must have whether you are in your Malaysia centre or whether Swamiji is not physically in our ashram. We must consider this: whatever is around in the ashram or centre, this is the body of our guru and we feel him in every corner, not only the corner but physically outside but in every corner of our mind, in every cell, see his presence, be directed by him, be guided by him. Always feel his presence is with us. That will really take us forward. Is it okay?
Jeyabalasingam: Yes Ma, thanks for the guidance. Ma, if we are finished, can we conclude by chanting the sloka?
Maa Gurupriya: Okay, all of you chant together.
(All together chant ‘Prabuddham Vimuktam Vikaradihinam…’)
Jeyabalasingam: Jaiguru. Jaiguru. Thanks Ma. On behalf of all of us here, thank you for the time you have spent with us.
Maa Gurupriya: My love to all of you.
(End of videosatsang) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Video satsang, 8 March, 2009. Duration 40 minutes. Skype set-up and recording by Rames and Rema. Satsang coordination by Jeyabalasingam and Unnikrishnan. Bhojan Annakshetra team supervised by Shanti. Transcription of audiofile by Swaminathan (23rd May, 2009). Emailed to Ashram 23rd May 2009. Hand-out sheet for participants prepared by Management Committee, Society for Inner Resources Development Malaysia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix: (Hand-out sheet and reading material given to participants for group discussion before the commencement of video-satsang):
SIRD Malaysia Video-satsang: Sunday 8 March 2009 Topic: Interactional saadhana.
Interactional saadhana differs from the protoactive, meditational, introspectional, absorptional and other forms of saadhana. For the most part of the day, we are interacting and the interactional life is continuing. Whatever experience, knowledge, enrichment or otherwise takes place in life is all through interactions, interactions and interactions alone.
In the interactions, I said, the interacting individual remains the same and the factors interacted with are variable. Persons are there, interpersonal reactions, interpersonal behaviour – this is the most complex. Then you have to interact with different types of situations, environments, surroundings etc. So, in all our interactions, persons, places and events constantly come up. While the interactions go on, their connection with us, that they subsist on our inside, also does not change and when the interactions are over, every time, their final impact also falls on our inside.
So the interacting individual, specially his inner personality, inner identity is something that never gets disconnected or dislodged throughout our life. And it is this area that requires to be enriched, empowered, elevated and ultimately enlightened. Throughout the interactions you will find the interacting individual expressing his inner worth, value and objective. The word objective can be replaced by goal or aim.
So in the interactional saadhana, the sadhaka has no failure at all. He may have different types of responses from persons, places and events. All these different responses, his mind should have the elasticity, the flexibility, the magnitude and depth to assimilate and convert into a continuous process of enrichment, expanse, and finally enlightenment.
- Extract from “Interactional Saadhana [Morning Talk] by Swami Bhoomananda Tirtha; Spiritual Exposition ‘Knowledge – The Greatest Treasure’ 2007 Souvenir Program , pages 21 – 24.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions for the GROUP MEMBERS participating in the discussion:
1. What is interactional sadhana and how does one practise it?
2. Why are sadhaks asked to practise both interactional sadhana and meditation? Is not one alone sufficient?
3. What obstacles do you face in practising interactional sadhana? Share your success or failure with the other group members.
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AFTER the discussion, list one or two questions your group wishes to put forward to Poojya Swamiji.
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2.
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Below is the Email circular sent out to participants on 5 March 2009 by the publicity group.
Dear participant, End.
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